Why Most Founders Wait Until It's Too Late (And What Breaks at 50 Employees)

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Where there's no pain, there's no change.

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The best leaders, the best owners that I work with have experienced the pain and they're like, I don't want that pain anymore.

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Make that pain go away.

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Unfortunately, most owners wait until things really, really hurt in order to fix it.

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Every growing company hits a point where the thing that got them here quietly stops working.

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My guest today says that point is right around 30 to 40 employees.

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And most founders don't notice it until they're at 60 and the wheels are already falling off.

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I think they get a little bit confident in their ability to grow and scale without HR because everything is fine.

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But what they don't know is under the iceberg, right, is another iceberg.

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Tina Lindenbrink is a fractional chief people officer who spent 30 years building HR functions inside of companies, including an example where she stood up an entire HR department for a company with a thousand employees.

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Now she does that work for growth stage businesses that aren't ready for a full time HR team, but they desperately need the structure and the foundation that she provides.

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Founders tend to want loyalty.

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So sometimes when an employee brings a claim, they take it personally.

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They decide to exit them from the company.

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And then that can actually turn around and be a bigger claim because retaliation is far more expensive than the initial claim.

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So in this conversation, we're going to talk about what it costs to wait.

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And we're also going to talk about what it looks like to build the foundation and the structure before you need it so your company can grow.

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I hope you enjoy this episode of Leading Through Growth.

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So, Tina, as a fractional chief people officer, what type of problems do you solve for businesses?

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Oh, they range depending on where they are in their maturity level.

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But there's anything from trying to figure out like how to scale with all the different employment laws.

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It's helping them really shape their culture instead of making it happen accidentally.

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Making sure the right hiring process, the challenge on hiring the right people and when.

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And then there's always the factor of, you know, why are people leaving?

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We have a great culture.

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I don't understand.

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And then also, why can't we find good people?

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So those are a lot of the challenges that I've been hearing.

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And then even just most recently, it's really understanding how do we even set ourselves up structurally to scale?

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And how do we make sure we have the right systems and process in place that will allow us to go fast?

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Yeah, the structure to scale is really interesting, right?

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Because when you look at a business, it's usually like one person with an idea.

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And then, you know, that idea becomes slightly successful, they bring in other people, and they bring in other people.

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And then at a certain point, they're like, holy crap, this is too many people.

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I don't know.

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I don't know what to do with all of these people.

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What point do you usually see a founder get to where they're like,

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you know what, I probably should need like some HR help.

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I probably need somebody to help me come and like deal with all these people and structure this in the right ways for us to grow.

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Yeah, I would say the sweet spot is somewhere between 20 and 50.

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Once you get to 50 employees, you're really, the efficiencies start to be, I mean, the processes start to break, right?

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And inefficiencies start to happen.

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Duplication happens.

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You don't have people that understand what their actual role is.

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They don't have accountability.

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They're wearing multiple hats.

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So somewhere probably right around 30 or 40, you should be putting that structure in place.

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A lot of times founders and owners wear multiple hats and they assume other people will do the same.

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But most employees want to know what am I responsible for?

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What am I contributing to?

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And how am I being measured for success?

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Yeah.

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And if you have multiple points of success that you're measured by, you can't do one thing really well.

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And so getting that right early on, I think, is really important.

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And then when you start to grow and get to about 50 employees, you also have people saying, well, where can I go in the organization?

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Like there's only two managers above me.

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So where's my career and how am I going to be developed and who's coaching me and what's my performance and who's giving me that feedback and how do I even know if I'm doing success?

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They start challenging the systems and the process because they ultimately want to know like, where is this headed?

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Yeah, those are really great questions and things to think about.

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Usually founders at that stage are not thinking about those things until they come up.

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Like something happens and they're like, oh, yeah, I guess we do have to solve for that.

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Because like you said, they're wearing so many hats.

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In my experience doing fractional learning and development work, companies usually call us like six to 12 months too late.

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And what I mean by that, it's like, man, this would not have been this big of a problem if you would have called us six months ago.

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But now we have to actually like clean up the mess and dig out of this hole.

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And then we can go forward with actual plan and like being strategic about stuff.

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But first, it's kind of like firefighting.

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I wonder if that's similar in your business.

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Like what what typically breaks and then they call you and you're like, man, you should call us six months ago.

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And excuse me, multiple things can break, but you're absolutely right.

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I think sometimes people think, let's bring in HR now because we have this hot employee relations issue.

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Or we have to bring in somebody now because we can't find the right talent.

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And we have orders that need to go out the door, but we don't have people.

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We don't have seats and butts.

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Or we have people leaving and all of a sudden now we've got to figure out, is it a cultural thing or is it our pay and benefits?

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They don't know.

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So they tend to come in after the problem exists instead of coming in sooner and putting all the foundation.

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I'm a believer in visual and HR is like building a house.

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You put in your foundation, you can scale that house really fast and get it built and under roof.

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Then you can start putting in all of the niceties and all of the things that actually make it operate and make it feel like a home.

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So when the infrastructure is in place, when you have the foundation and you have your governing documents, your policies, your procedures, the culture is defined, that's when I think that's normally when a company is ready to grow.

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Unfortunately, what a lot of owners do is they bring you in after they've grown and they're ready to grow.

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And they do say, now, how do we retrofit this to make sure that we're in compliance with the law, that we have our handbook up to date, that our leaders are trained and know how to coach and develop and give feedback.

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So it is when they get to a certain growth that they feel like they need HR, but really they need HR to help them grow and to prepare for that growth.

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Otherwise, it is a broken process.

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Why do you think they wait?

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Like, what's your take on that?

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Like, why don't they call you six months earlier?

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Why do they wait until they have a big mess on their hands to say, oh, crap, we probably need help?

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Oh, I'm sure there's multiple reasons.

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I'm sure the first one is because where there's no pain, there's no change.

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And so I find that the best leaders, the best owners that I work with have experienced the pain and they're like, I don't want that pain anymore.

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Make that pain go away.

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So unfortunately, they have to feel the pain in order to want to change.

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I think others feel like everything is fine.

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Without the metrics or the thermometer to see what the temperature is, they just assume everything is fine.

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And I think they get a little bit confident in their ability to grow and scale without HR because everything is fine.

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But what they don't know is under the iceberg, right, is another problem.

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iceberg underneath and that's what they don't sometimes see.

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They don't see what's underneath.

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And then I think the other reason why they don't bring it in is because I don't think they've really had fractional HR support available to them in the past.

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Because fractional is not, people think of it as part-time, but it's really about the commitment that they have to helping this business grow and thrive, but they don't need the full-time support.

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So the affordability of being able to bring in somebody with 30 years of experience who's grown and scaled a business before, understands the business and what it takes, the drivers, what it takes to be successful and help them achieve their goals.

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I don't think it was available in the past.

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And so now with this emergence of fractional, I think small businesses are realizing that they can actually have a lot of value from an HR partnership, not just somebody to come on and do their administrative work, but to really be a thought partner to them and help them understand what are the challenges going to be and how do we prepare for them?

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How do we get ready for them?

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And then how do we do this in a way that makes sense for the size of the business they are?

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A lot of corporate executives, if they come into a small business, owners are they're protective, right?

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They're like, but I don't want to be corporate America.

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I don't want to be corporate.

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I want to be big business.

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Well, fractional HR people take the concepts out.

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And apply them in a fashion that is right for the size of the business.

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And so I think the more they recognize that we're not trying to overhaul them and make them into a, you know, a big Bank of America, right?

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They'll see the value and they'll see the opportunity to be able to partner with somebody who is strategic, but also who will do the work.

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Yeah, it's funny.

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Founders have to balance like what do they let go of to get to that next level?

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And a lot of them that I work with, at least it's cool.

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They have a culture there and they're like, we need to put some structure in place, but we don't want to ruin our culture.

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And so, you know, coming in doing training work, I hear a lot of like, well, we don't want our people to be robots.

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It's like, well, you can have standardization without being robots.

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It's not, there's a, there's a third option in there, right?

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It's not like black or white.

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There's a gray area in the middle where we can meet them.

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I do want to have a big fractional conversation, but there's something that you said earlier that's sticking in my mind.

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You said, like, if we build the infrastructure first, then we can really scale fast.

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And I imagine there's a founder.

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I'm a founder.

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I'm listening to this episode.

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like, I don't know if I have the infrastructure in place.

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Maybe I think I do, but I'm not sure.

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Could you walk us through from an HR perspective what that infrastructure looks like?

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I know there's a compliance piece to that.

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You talked about hiring, making sure that you got the right people.

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You talked about culture.

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What are some of those basic foundational things that every company needs to have before they scale?

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Yeah, I think the compliance piece, depending on how large they are, like if they're less than 15, that's a different conversation.

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If they are up to 50, that's a different conversation.

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And then 50 to 100 is another kind of scaling point from a compliance standpoint.

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But it's not just compliance from federal law, but it's also understanding all of your jurisdictional and your state laws.

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So if a company has multiple states, I have a client that we just redid their handbook and recognized that they operate, they have employees in four different states and they had none of their state addendums and none of it was incorporated into their handbook.

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And so when somebody leaves, right, there's a different law, perhaps in another state on PTO payout.

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These are little things, but they're things that can get you into trouble.

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But there's also leave laws and there's, oh my gosh, there's just a lot of laws.

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So compliance, yes, that is one piece of this.

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But it's also that process.

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What is the process?

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What is the standard operating procedure for each of these components?

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So you can streamline that.

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And managers know how we can hire somebody.

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How do we awkward somebody?

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How do we make sure that if somebody has a concern that it's being brought forward?

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How are we addressing requests for accommodation, both medical and religious?

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That's a big one that I see in small companies.

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They just accommodate everybody because they have no idea what the Americans with Disability Act really covers and how to handle it.

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And so I've walked in many times and had organizations with,

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three and four different accommodations that was impacting their productivity.

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It was impacting their culture.

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And they didn't know what to do because they just assumed the person said they had an issue that they had to accommodate it.

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And so it's making sure managers and employees know where to go

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who to go to and for what reasons, and having an expert be able to navigate through some of those more complex laws.

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So, and then also being able to have an actual updated handbook.

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I had a client, had one from 2017, and they felt it was in good shape and just needed a little dusting off.

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And it was a complete overhaul because so many things have changed, not only from the law, but operationally.

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dress codes that are outdated, that don't reflect, you know, inclusivity.

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And it's just really sometimes the little things that get you set up for being able to attract somebody and helping them articulate what does it look like to actually work at this organization and being able to sell that.

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Today, there's a lot of small businesses, they rely on referrals and

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Well, the talent pool is drying up.

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So what is that employee value proposition?

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So that is all part of getting the foundation set up.

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Because if an employee doesn't know the value of coming into your organization, why should they choose you over someone else?

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So you have compliance, you have very specific processes that need to be put in place so managers and employees know where to go, who to go to, and when to reach out.

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And then it's the expertise that guides the owners on how to handle some of these more complex HR issues.

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that happen no matter what size of a company you are.

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You know, sometimes, unfortunately, I get a client because they just paid out a huge EEOC claim.

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And after I join and engage with them, I realize that that could have been mitigated.

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It could have been prevented and, or at least minimized.

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So I think sometimes they don't realize just how a process can help save them hundreds, if not thousands of dollars

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Yeah.

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There's laws, like I said, that most founders aren't even aware of that are not just the big federal laws, but they're also, you know, the maternity laws, the ADA.

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So there's just a lot of things that are embedded in states that founders are trying to navigate federal and they don't recognize what they need to understand locally.

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Those claims, is there a range of like how much that could cost a company?

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Yeah.

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oh my gosh, they could be up to $100,000 depending on how well the process is handled, whether or not there's a retaliation claim.

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And, you know,

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Founders tend to want loyalty and they really want employees who are passionate about their product or service, want to stay with them long term.

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And so sometimes when an employee brings a claim, they take it personally.

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And so what they end up doing is they decide shortly after that claim comes forward to figure out how to exit them from the company.

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And then that can actually turn around and be a bigger claim because retaliation is far more expensive than the initial claim.

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So they don't want the bad apple.

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But what they don't realize is they have an active claim and they have somebody who legitimately is saying, hey, I need some help and understanding what this what you know what is happening.

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And when that is not treated with due diligence, when it's not treated delicately.

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If it's not kept confidential or if it's not resolved to their satisfaction, right, then that just continues to compound what that payout might look like.

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I think those are the stories that people need to hear because if you think about it just logically, right?

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I start this business.

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I hire people.

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I want people to come in and do a good job so that they can do well, so our customers can do well, so our business can do well.

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And then someone, I get a complaint one day that someone's not happy here.

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And it's like, oh, I feel bad that you're not happy here.

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I don't want you to have that experience.

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I don't want that experience to roll off on other people.

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I'll just exit you from the business.

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And that makes sense.

204
00:16:32.077 --> 00:16:39.501
But it sounds like there's a world of legal and compliance where we're like, that doesn't make sense.

205
00:16:39.541 --> 00:16:49.065
And it could be really, really costly for me as a business owner if I don't understand those rules and laws or at least have someone on my team that can understand those things.

206
00:16:49.405 --> 00:16:49.705
Yeah.

207
00:16:50.005 --> 00:16:52.366
And that's what I would say for fractional.

208
00:16:52.386 --> 00:16:57.868
That's what I've most enjoyed is just educating founders, but they get to make the decision.

209
00:16:57.968 --> 00:17:06.030
They own the risk and being able to help them understand what the process looks like, you know, and they sometimes are not patient individuals.

210
00:17:06.110 --> 00:17:08.471
They're entrepreneurs and they like things handled quickly.

211
00:17:08.871 --> 00:17:23.261
But being able to help them to understand the value of following the process, the value of understanding what the risks are, and then also the value of being able to still own their business and make a decision, I think is where the true partnership comes in.

212
00:17:23.401 --> 00:17:25.502
Because at the end of the day, it's their business.

213
00:17:26.103 --> 00:17:34.048
And if they feel strongly about something and they know what the risks are, then that is where I feel confident I've done my job and being able to help.

214
00:17:34.488 --> 00:17:35.890
expose any of that risk.

215
00:17:36.350 --> 00:17:43.118
But if they want to make that decision and they have to do the payout, again, sometimes pain causes change.

216
00:17:43.418 --> 00:17:45.961
And then maybe they'll do it differently the next time.

217
00:17:46.481 --> 00:17:50.626
So in bigger corporate America, right, they're constrained.

218
00:17:50.846 --> 00:17:54.710
Executives are constrained and sometimes they have to do exactly what HR tells them.

219
00:17:55.090 --> 00:17:57.614
Because they're the compliance department, right?

220
00:17:57.654 --> 00:18:03.483
And small businesses, they want to be able to still make those critical decisions.

221
00:18:03.503 --> 00:18:07.129
And they just don't have somebody to help them make that decision.

222
00:18:07.169 --> 00:18:10.034
And that's where I think a true fractional partner comes in.

223
00:18:10.989 --> 00:18:12.190
Yeah.

224
00:18:12.270 --> 00:18:13.511
Let's talk fractional.

225
00:18:13.531 --> 00:18:21.438
You had a very traditional HR career and then you decided to kind of leave corporate America and go fractional.

226
00:18:21.999 --> 00:18:23.280
Talk to me through that journey.

227
00:18:23.320 --> 00:18:24.721
What went into that decision?

228
00:18:25.462 --> 00:18:27.544
What made you want to do HR differently?

229
00:18:28.705 --> 00:18:36.674
Well, in my 30 years, there have been many HR departments that I've had to come in and reshape, build, scale.

230
00:18:36.974 --> 00:18:38.596
And I truly enjoy that.

231
00:18:38.916 --> 00:18:44.542
I love smaller businesses or smaller divisions.

232
00:18:44.622 --> 00:18:47.525
I've never been like at the top of a big organization.

233
00:18:47.585 --> 00:18:50.649
I've always been within the organization in a smaller subset.

234
00:18:51.389 --> 00:18:54.051
being able to build out those, that infrastructure.

235
00:18:54.531 --> 00:19:04.596
But my last corporate role, I was able to literally build the HR department from the ground up, partnering with the executive team on what those business objectives were.

236
00:19:05.237 --> 00:19:11.920
And after four and a half years of a very successful run, I was basically told, I think we're going to go in a different direction.

237
00:19:11.980 --> 00:19:14.422
And that direction meant they're going to go into maintenance mode.

238
00:19:15.082 --> 00:19:19.924
So I sat back and reflected and I thought, okay, it was a thousand employees.

239
00:19:19.984 --> 00:19:27.647
We were able to grow and scale very quickly and really manage a lot of change, especially navigating through COVID.

240
00:19:27.947 --> 00:19:32.529
And I just asked myself, if I can do that for a thousand employee company,

241
00:19:33.129 --> 00:19:39.694
what could I do for a smaller organization that's even in its prime of maturity of being able to set up and grow?

242
00:19:40.214 --> 00:19:41.815
And that's what really piqued my interest.

243
00:19:41.855 --> 00:19:44.237
And that's what got me started researching fractional.

244
00:19:45.117 --> 00:19:46.638
I'm from the genre of interim.

245
00:19:47.079 --> 00:19:50.661
And I kept trying to figure out what's the difference between interim and fractional.

246
00:19:51.222 --> 00:19:56.025
And interim was short term, where fractional was part time.

247
00:19:56.725 --> 00:19:58.367
And being able to come in,

248
00:19:59.227 --> 00:20:12.831
And work with multiple clients simultaneously, understanding where they are or where they, yeah, where they are in the process of growing and what are their growth initiatives and what is hindering them from being able to grow and then putting solutions around that.

249
00:20:13.391 --> 00:20:25.054
I have seen so much success just in the two years that I've been fractional that it really, I would say, reinvigorates me on the whole concept of fractional because it's a proven model.

250
00:20:26.788 --> 00:20:27.109
Yeah.

251
00:20:27.471 --> 00:20:30.100
What are some of the biggest challenges going from corporate to fractional?

252
00:20:32.254 --> 00:20:36.277
I want to solve all the challenges and infraction you have to prioritize.

253
00:20:36.657 --> 00:20:39.859
I think HR people in general are problem solvers, right?

254
00:20:39.899 --> 00:20:40.840
We're curious.

255
00:20:40.940 --> 00:20:44.442
We're trying to figure out like, where's the downstream effect?

256
00:20:44.462 --> 00:20:48.005
Where's the root cause of these three challenges?

257
00:20:48.365 --> 00:20:50.226
And I'm a tinkerer.

258
00:20:50.286 --> 00:20:55.810
So I like to get in and figure out where all the problems are, come up with a solution, come up with a roadmap.

259
00:20:56.310 --> 00:20:58.052
But in a small business, you know,

260
00:20:58.592 --> 00:21:01.353
They can't absorb all the change, right?

261
00:21:01.453 --> 00:21:05.936
They're still trying to figure out how to grow and put in process all across the organization, not just HR.

262
00:21:06.416 --> 00:21:20.083
And so being able to be very crystal clear on what are the priorities that we need to focus on in the next 30, 60, 90 days, get those deliverables done, measure them, and then continue to do that in a repeatable way.

263
00:21:20.603 --> 00:21:24.005
until they are at a certain point where you have scaled them.

264
00:21:24.185 --> 00:21:27.807
And then the next question is, okay, then what's enablement look like?

265
00:21:27.867 --> 00:21:36.092
If we've scaled you to a point where you're able to now grow, grow quickly, what are the next steps to be able to get you to that next level of growth?

266
00:21:36.593 --> 00:21:41.656
Because what you do below 50 is not the same thing you do whenever you're 50 to 100.

267
00:21:42.656 --> 00:21:46.958
And so those those milestone steps are really critical.

268
00:21:47.778 --> 00:21:50.599
So I think that's a really important factor.

269
00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:51.920
Yeah.

270
00:21:52.520 --> 00:21:59.523
In your research, transitioning from corporate to fractional, you found ServeHR, which I'm going to bring the speaker out.

271
00:22:01.583 --> 00:22:02.704
That I'm sure we both have.

272
00:22:02.884 --> 00:22:04.847
We both love ServeHR.

273
00:22:05.327 --> 00:22:14.037
Tell me, how has your experience with ServeHR been as far as helping you transition from full-time employee to now business owner?

274
00:22:14.982 --> 00:22:22.666
Well, this is where I get really giddy because I'd mentioned that I started doing a lot of research on fractional and I thought I really can make this work.

275
00:22:23.186 --> 00:22:28.949
And I started talking with a lot of very successful fractional practitioners that had been doing this for a couple of years.

276
00:22:29.929 --> 00:22:31.610
But they had to do the marketing.

277
00:22:31.650 --> 00:22:33.111
They had to come up with their logo.

278
00:22:33.151 --> 00:22:38.774
They have to get all of their forms and their tools and a CRM and all those things because...

279
00:22:39.294 --> 00:22:43.176
even though I'm an HR practitioner to go fractional, I also have to be business development.

280
00:22:43.256 --> 00:22:44.277
I have to be a marketer.

281
00:22:44.377 --> 00:22:49.120
I have to run operations and pay, you know, do invoices and pay bills and pay employees.

282
00:22:49.620 --> 00:22:51.901
And so to me, that started to get very overwhelming.

283
00:22:52.622 --> 00:22:58.305
And I was introduced to another Serve HR advisor who shared this concept of a platform.

284
00:22:58.985 --> 00:23:05.589
And honestly, it was a no-brainer for me because that platform really put me in a position to come in

285
00:23:06.329 --> 00:23:11.230
to get trained and then to be able to go start building a business for fractional HR.

286
00:23:11.751 --> 00:23:14.851
Serve HR is, it's ran on EOS.

287
00:23:15.332 --> 00:23:23.774
So immediately I understood what an operating system really, how an operating system really benefits a small organization.

288
00:23:24.754 --> 00:23:27.635
And I often use EOS whenever I work with my clients.

289
00:23:28.795 --> 00:23:40.238
Serve HR provided the coaching, the resources, the support, the tools, I mean, everything you can imagine, and a brand that really resonates.

290
00:23:40.358 --> 00:23:42.239
Serve HR is what I do.

291
00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:52.142
And so being able to purchase a license through Serve HR and be able to immediately start bringing in business was the biggest factor for me.

292
00:23:52.262 --> 00:23:53.082
It was a no-brainer.

293
00:23:54.429 --> 00:23:54.689
Yeah.

294
00:23:55.309 --> 00:23:58.450
And another part that I really love about serve HR is the community, right?

295
00:23:58.550 --> 00:24:05.872
So a lot of consultants are, and business owners in general, are kind of inherently lonely, right?

296
00:24:05.972 --> 00:24:10.454
Like, I remember thinking like, okay, I'm at all these companies all the time.

297
00:24:10.494 --> 00:24:14.255
I'm with all these companies, but I don't necessarily belong to any of these companies.

298
00:24:14.775 --> 00:24:18.796
I'm just kind of, I'm there for a day or two and then I'm gone and I'm here for a day or two and then I'm gone.

299
00:24:19.376 --> 00:24:20.597
And so to be able to have

300
00:24:21.337 --> 00:24:35.805
a community of advisors that are living in different places, but doing the same work that you're doing that you can bounce ideas off of, or, you know, I would, I would have paid to have somebody that I can pick up the phone and say, Hey, I'm getting ready to submit this proposal.

301
00:24:36.105 --> 00:24:47.692
Can you look at it and let me know if my pricing is off or if this is the right package or, you know, here are some of the things that I learned in discovery, like how would you pitch this and a survey to our offers that community as well.

302
00:24:48.432 --> 00:24:49.854
online and in person.

303
00:24:50.174 --> 00:24:53.697
And I think that's extremely valuable for a lot of fractionals as well.

304
00:24:54.137 --> 00:24:58.541
Well, and not only community, but the expertise is phenomenal.

305
00:24:59.022 --> 00:25:01.864
Even though I have 30 years of experience, there's some things that I haven't done.

306
00:25:02.505 --> 00:25:13.634
And so being able to reach out to another survey job advisor who has that expertise and lean on that or working with them in a different market and understanding their laws.

307
00:25:13.674 --> 00:25:15.376
So if I have a client that operates in

308
00:25:15.916 --> 00:25:23.639
four different states, and I have serve HR advisors in those states, being able to say, tell me more about this particular law and how do you handle it?

309
00:25:24.639 --> 00:25:27.060
That expertise, I could never get on my own.

310
00:25:27.620 --> 00:25:42.625
So the community of support, the community of knowledge base, the community of systems and process, because if somebody creates a really cool tool, they share it with us and we put it in our community platform.

311
00:25:43.165 --> 00:25:45.948
kind of SharePoint, so everyone has access to it.

312
00:25:46.848 --> 00:25:55.436
I think there's many examples of how community is probably the biggest reason why ServeHR is so valuable to me and all the other advisors.

313
00:25:56.736 --> 00:25:57.056
Yeah.

314
00:25:57.597 --> 00:26:03.220
This fractional boom that we're experiencing in the HR space is very, very, very, very interesting.

315
00:26:03.360 --> 00:26:09.484
I think that we may get to a bubble one day where there's everyone calling themselves fractional.

316
00:26:10.145 --> 00:26:12.006
And maybe that's a good thing.

317
00:26:12.046 --> 00:26:12.846
Maybe that's not a good thing.

318
00:26:12.886 --> 00:26:13.307
I don't know.

319
00:26:13.727 --> 00:26:16.949
When you think about the value proposition for a business perspective,

320
00:26:17.029 --> 00:26:21.056
to go fractional versus hiring someone full-time?

321
00:26:21.637 --> 00:26:30.712
Do you feel like there's more value in a small business going fractional instead of bringing somebody on full-time with benefits and full pay and all those things?

322
00:26:31.463 --> 00:26:32.123
Absolutely.

323
00:26:32.263 --> 00:26:37.706
So there is so many reasons to go fractional whenever you're less than 150 employees.

324
00:26:37.746 --> 00:26:42.789
About 100 to 150 is the sweet spot of bringing on a full-time person.

325
00:26:42.829 --> 00:26:48.812
But even then, it could be an HR generalist with a fractional executive being your strategic thought partner.

326
00:26:49.313 --> 00:27:00.899
But in the beginning, our ServeHR model, and I have a team of four, is one client is able to get a strategic director of HR and an HR generalist.

327
00:27:01.179 --> 00:27:04.541
So they're not just getting one level of expertise.

328
00:27:04.781 --> 00:27:11.884
I have a client that was wanting to hire an HR generalist, and yet they wanted her or this person to be a strategic thought partner, too.

329
00:27:12.564 --> 00:27:13.725
You can't have both.

330
00:27:13.825 --> 00:27:19.767
You can't have an HR generalist who's going to do all the day-to-day grind and be a strategic thought partner.

331
00:27:19.807 --> 00:27:23.529
They don't have that level of experience for the pay that they want to pay.

332
00:27:24.049 --> 00:27:30.551
So if you pay an HR generalist anywhere between 80 and 100, you're also paying for their taxes and their benefits.

333
00:27:31.252 --> 00:27:33.252
But you're going to get that level of experience.

334
00:27:33.312 --> 00:27:36.033
Now, they can grow and they can be coached and developed.

335
00:27:36.474 --> 00:27:43.456
But what they need right now is a thought partner on how are we truly setting ourselves up so that way we can grow quickly?

336
00:27:43.476 --> 00:27:48.038
And how do we make sure that we have the right structure in place, the right culture, the right...

337
00:27:49.399 --> 00:27:51.741
the right seats, the right people in the right seats.

338
00:27:52.361 --> 00:28:02.990
So I feel like Serve HR has provided an opportunity for small businesses to have both the HR generalist and the strategic thought partner, even though it's at a part-time basis.

339
00:28:03.030 --> 00:28:03.951
They run in tandem.

340
00:28:04.432 --> 00:28:10.517
You have somebody who's overseeing the growth and really the strategic initiatives.

341
00:28:10.877 --> 00:28:16.042
And then you have an HR generalist that is really executing and getting the work done

342
00:28:16.663 --> 00:28:18.808
And they're both partners to the organization.

343
00:28:19.249 --> 00:28:20.853
And they do it quickly.

344
00:28:21.595 --> 00:28:22.638
They do it efficiently.

345
00:28:23.059 --> 00:28:24.061
And they do it thoughtfully.

346
00:28:25.894 --> 00:28:27.754
Yeah, I think that math works out.

347
00:28:28.155 --> 00:28:34.916
I think a lot of people, when they hear fractional, they think, oh, I'm going to pay someone a full time salary and they're only going to be here a fraction of the time.

348
00:28:35.436 --> 00:28:35.656
Right.

349
00:28:35.736 --> 00:28:37.297
Whereas a fractional is fractional.

350
00:28:37.317 --> 00:28:40.777
And it's like, oh, I can give you full time results for a fraction of the paying.

351
00:28:41.258 --> 00:28:46.839
I think it's important to highlight if I hire a fractional at my business, a two people officer like yourself.

352
00:28:47.980 --> 00:28:51.825
I'm not just getting that person and their 30 years of experience and their expertise.

353
00:28:52.526 --> 00:28:53.647
I'm also getting a team.

354
00:28:54.228 --> 00:29:04.581
And so it's almost like I get an HR director, HR generalist, this thought partner all together for a fraction of what it would cost me to bring in a strategic leader at that level.

355
00:29:04.641 --> 00:29:05.902
And so I think that is fantastic.

356
00:29:07.230 --> 00:29:12.654
maybe not talked about enough and really, really underrated, especially when you have the structure to bring in a team.

357
00:29:13.294 --> 00:29:20.279
You're not just hiring Tina, you're getting Tina and her team, which comes with its own results at different levels of the organization.

358
00:29:20.299 --> 00:29:24.242
So I think that's really, really cool and something that probably should be highlighted more.

359
00:29:25.142 --> 00:29:29.829
Yeah, I would say there's one other thing to that, and that is we work on deliverables and outcomes.

360
00:29:30.550 --> 00:29:36.058
So if you bring in an HR generalist, right, they're going to come in and they're going to do the job that they need to do.

361
00:29:36.659 --> 00:29:40.084
We actually come in and we make sure everything we're delivering is

362
00:29:40.424 --> 00:29:43.186
has an outcome or a result that impacts the business.

363
00:29:43.706 --> 00:30:00.677
And so being able to articulate that and show the founders and the executives what that value is, is probably the most critical piece whenever you're thinking about fractional, because otherwise they'll question what you're actually doing, because you don't see a lot of the HR generalist work, right?

364
00:30:00.697 --> 00:30:02.078
There's a lot of admin to it.

365
00:30:02.698 --> 00:30:14.042
But when you build in what the deliverable is and the outcome and how we measure it, I think that's really when they kind of wake up and say, holy cow, there is something to this and we appreciate your partnership.

366
00:30:15.534 --> 00:30:16.795
Yeah.

367
00:30:17.075 --> 00:30:18.936
I have an interesting question to ask you.

368
00:30:19.837 --> 00:30:27.282
I think HR generally gets a bad rep, sometimes deserved, sometimes not deserved.

369
00:30:27.862 --> 00:30:31.705
But you see the headlines of like Bolt CEO firing all the HR people.

370
00:30:32.425 --> 00:30:38.869
The subtext under that is he brought in people ops, but he just didn't like how those HR people were operating.

371
00:30:39.590 --> 00:30:42.792
I wonder when you go into a business, do you ever have to fight against people?

372
00:30:43.603 --> 00:30:48.065
that company or that founder having bad experiences with HR previously?

373
00:30:48.145 --> 00:30:50.526
And they're like, I don't know if I want to do the HR thing again.

374
00:30:51.066 --> 00:30:52.367
All I hear is bad news.

375
00:30:53.047 --> 00:30:57.609
All they do is, you know, be negative and tell me what we can't do and all those things.

376
00:30:57.929 --> 00:31:02.811
Do you ever have to fight against that to show them that like, okay, I'm strategic HR, I'm different?

377
00:31:04.151 --> 00:31:08.773
So what I love about owning my own business is I also get to choose my own clients.

378
00:31:09.353 --> 00:31:21.997
So when I go to a discovery meeting and I'm listening to how the owner or the executive views HR in the organization, I listen to how they care about their employees.

379
00:31:22.537 --> 00:31:29.341
I listen to what they're wanting to do for their employees or what their investment in their employees will be.

380
00:31:29.922 --> 00:31:34.705
So if they're not employee centric, they're probably not going to be a huge HR fan.

381
00:31:35.565 --> 00:31:43.771
If they're only wanting to grow the business as fast as possible, be as profitable as possible, then I don't know if I'm going to be the right person for them.

382
00:31:43.871 --> 00:31:51.536
Because my my value is making sure that the people challenges are resolved in a way that creates change.

383
00:31:52.816 --> 00:31:57.758
top attraction strategies, engagement, development, and retention.

384
00:31:58.638 --> 00:32:01.899
And a CEO can't do that alone, right?

385
00:32:01.939 --> 00:32:09.961
They have to have a partner in that and they have to be invested in making sure that they're doing things that benefit employees too.

386
00:32:10.641 --> 00:32:14.342
And so it, and I have, I've turned away clients because they're,

387
00:32:14.462 --> 00:32:19.207
they wanted a certain outcome that didn't include caring about their employees.

388
00:32:19.287 --> 00:32:20.308
And it was very obvious.

389
00:32:20.368 --> 00:32:21.750
The culture was very toxic.

390
00:32:22.270 --> 00:32:25.594
And I said at this time, I don't think I'm a good fit.

391
00:32:26.075 --> 00:32:27.856
And so I'm okay with that.

392
00:32:28.757 --> 00:32:30.619
Now, where I have run into it,

393
00:32:31.600 --> 00:32:34.423
I had a, they're one of my favorite clients now.

394
00:32:34.903 --> 00:32:36.104
They started with a handbook.

395
00:32:36.425 --> 00:32:41.409
And when I started talking about fractional, it was no, no, we've already been down that path before.

396
00:32:41.529 --> 00:32:42.090
We're okay.

397
00:32:42.650 --> 00:32:44.712
You know, we don't want to try that bad experience.

398
00:32:45.233 --> 00:32:53.960
So as I was going through the handbook, I was building the relationship with them by asking very strategic questions around how would your employees articulate your culture?

399
00:32:55.102 --> 00:32:57.024
how do employees get promoted?

400
00:32:57.644 --> 00:33:01.548
How do you determine who gets a raise, you know, what their bonus is?

401
00:33:02.169 --> 00:33:07.194
And tell me a little bit about how you onboard and what would people say after you offboard them?

402
00:33:07.754 --> 00:33:10.737
So through this two-month process of going through the handbook,

403
00:33:11.398 --> 00:33:18.582
What I did was I was able to expose some of the gaps that they had, and they were a 60, 70 employee company.

404
00:33:19.262 --> 00:33:23.624
And so at the end of it, they said, you know, I actually think we need your help.

405
00:33:24.204 --> 00:33:27.446
And so the three owners partnered with me and they started.

406
00:33:27.506 --> 00:33:28.206
So it was handbook.

407
00:33:28.226 --> 00:33:29.367
And then we went to projects.

408
00:33:29.947 --> 00:33:31.548
It was career mapping.

409
00:33:31.588 --> 00:33:33.269
It was performance management.

410
00:33:33.389 --> 00:33:35.130
It was bonus transparency.

411
00:33:35.771 --> 00:33:41.254
And it was at the end of those three projects that they said, I think we could use you as a thought partner.

412
00:33:41.494 --> 00:33:47.418
And then that's when they engaged with me on, you know, a regular 12-month engagement.

413
00:33:47.638 --> 00:33:49.639
And they are an amazing client right now.

414
00:33:50.059 --> 00:33:51.120
So they were skeptical.

415
00:33:51.560 --> 00:33:52.401
I'm okay with that.

416
00:33:52.541 --> 00:34:01.930
I have no problem being able to work with, you know, just the beginning points and asking the questions and building the relationship because you do have to trust your HR partner.

417
00:34:01.970 --> 00:34:07.315
And if you don't trust your HR partner, they end up being the administrative person of the organization.

418
00:34:09.237 --> 00:34:12.400
What are some of your biggest wins so far as a fractional?

419
00:34:14.608 --> 00:34:16.009
I have a turnaround client.

420
00:34:16.049 --> 00:34:20.451
They came out of bankruptcy in 2023, and they've yet to turn a profit.

421
00:34:21.552 --> 00:34:26.994
They brought in a new VP of HR in January, and we took over the HR department.

422
00:34:27.675 --> 00:34:34.638
The former HR person was so far out of compliance on so many different things that we had to act very quickly.

423
00:34:34.978 --> 00:34:37.960
It was also a union organization with many grievances.

424
00:34:38.760 --> 00:34:42.445
We were going through open enrollment and we were facing a huge increase.

425
00:34:43.327 --> 00:34:45.630
So there were multiple things that we had to do all at once.

426
00:34:45.890 --> 00:34:52.519
And I recommended streamlining to a new HR payroll system, so that way we had better reporting.

427
00:34:53.380 --> 00:34:54.842
All of that in the first 90 days.

428
00:34:55.563 --> 00:34:59.769
And I would have to say from an employee standpoint, there are zero outstanding grievances.

429
00:35:00.730 --> 00:35:03.234
We have successfully completed all of our compliance audits.

430
00:35:03.254 --> 00:35:05.797
We are still cleaning it up, but those have been completed.

431
00:35:06.598 --> 00:35:10.784
But more importantly, we have shifted the culture to be very values-driven.

432
00:35:11.985 --> 00:35:22.955
In addition, on the benefits side, being really creative on how to save money, but still not take away from the employee value proposition of what the benefits were before.

433
00:35:23.376 --> 00:35:25.318
They were a very, very rich plan.

434
00:35:26.338 --> 00:35:29.461
Moving them over to self-funded and saving almost $100,000 in one year.

435
00:35:31.904 --> 00:35:46.006
There are just many, many ways that I think ServeHR came in and really provided them with immediate value and extreme partnership to the point where the VP said, if it's one department I can count on, it's the HR department.

436
00:35:47.310 --> 00:35:47.650
Wow.

437
00:35:48.371 --> 00:35:49.711
You love to hear praise like that.

438
00:35:49.811 --> 00:35:50.952
That's a really cool story.

439
00:35:51.332 --> 00:35:53.473
I'm going to put in the description of the show.

440
00:35:53.493 --> 00:35:56.155
I'm going to put Tina's LinkedIn profile.

441
00:35:56.495 --> 00:35:58.136
Also put the serve HR website.

442
00:35:58.156 --> 00:35:58.836
You can go on there.

443
00:35:58.856 --> 00:36:05.400
If you are interested in working with serve HR for your business and find an advisor in your area, maybe it's Tina.

444
00:36:05.420 --> 00:36:06.160
Hopefully it's Tina.

445
00:36:06.381 --> 00:36:06.561
Right.

446
00:36:07.261 --> 00:36:09.002
But I'll put that in there as well.

447
00:36:09.382 --> 00:36:16.126
Any last words that you want to leave to the leaders, the founders who are currently leading through growth, watching this episode and their,

448
00:36:16.587 --> 00:36:23.082
They're curious about fractional work or they're curious about bringing in someone in HR to kind of help them grow and structure their business.

449
00:36:24.098 --> 00:36:26.198
Yeah, I would say don't wait.

450
00:36:26.299 --> 00:36:32.580
There are many fractional HR executives out there who really will meet you where you are in the business.

451
00:36:32.680 --> 00:36:43.483
We provide valuable guidance and really help lead you through some of the broken processes or even the challenging situations that you're facing.

452
00:36:43.963 --> 00:36:44.903
So don't wait.

453
00:36:46.423 --> 00:36:53.945
Be open and really start to build that trust with your HR partner and see the value that they can bring.

454
00:36:55.327 --> 00:36:55.667
Love it.

455
00:36:56.389 --> 00:36:57.350
Tina, thank you so much.

456
00:36:57.390 --> 00:36:58.632
This has been great.

457
00:36:58.672 --> 00:36:59.934
I appreciate you taking the time.

458
00:37:00.715 --> 00:37:00.956
Yes.

459
00:37:01.016 --> 00:37:01.577
Thank you, Tony.