How to Build Confidence: Stop Waiting Until You Feel Ready

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If you keep waiting until you feel 100% ready, you're either going to never do it, or you're gonna wait far too long.

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If you're waiting on confidence before you take the next step, you actually may have it backwards.

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My guest today, Jill Shulman, says bravery is a skill and that taking action while you're afraid may actually be how confidence gets built.

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90% of the time, the fears that we feel are irrational.

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And the thing that we're so scared of happening will probably not happen.

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So what happens when you allow fear to control your behavior, it just reinforces it and you give more power to the fear.

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And it's kind of like a downward spiral.

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In this episode of Leading Through Growth, Jill and I talk about the science of bravery, why fear can sometimes be a sign that you're moving in the right direction, and how small acts of bravery can change the way we respond to fear.

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Many times we wait until we're confident to take action.

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Actually, it's action that precedes the confidence.

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So you've gotta take those steps a little bit scared and that builds the confidence.

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We also explore what this looks like at work.

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Why do talented people stay silent in meetings and why psychological safety alone isn't enough?

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We also cover what leaders can do to create a culture where people are willing to speak up, take risk and have difficult conversations.

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If you can teach people how to identify and overcome those fears, like their performance just takes off.

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And here's why they're so happy.

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Because when they go home at night and they look in the mirror, they like what they see.

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If you want to build more confidence in yourself or you want to help build a braver, more courageous team, then this is the conversation for you.

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This is Leading Through Growth featuring Jill Shulman.

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Jill, of course, I want to talk to you about bravery.

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I think one of the biggest questions that kind of bounces around in my head is, is bravery something you're born with or is it a skill?

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I have some nieces and nephews and I look at them.

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And they were here yesterday riding around the house on a hoverboard.

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You know, one of those things you kind of got to catch your balance on.

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I'm not courageous enough to get on it because I don't want them to see their Uncle Tony flat on his back.

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But some of them jump right on and they just do it.

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And they're like, they have no fear.

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And then some people were a little bit nervous, even at, you know, three or four or five years old.

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So I'm curious to know, from your perspective, is bravery something you're born with or can it be learned and trained?

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And I'll answer it from the scientific perspective because I'm a geek that way.

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So bravery is a skill that anyone can and should build.

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And that's one of the myths about bravery.

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People think that bravery is just something you're born with or you're not born with, and there's nothing you can do.

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So if you have that mindset and that belief that I'm just not brave, imagine that.

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how that belief impacts your behavior.

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So bravery is a skill that anyone can build.

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And that's why in my model, and I'm sure we're gonna be talking about it, I teach people how to be brave.

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There's the cognitive psychology, what we can do to change our mindset, our relationship to fear.

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Secondly, how do we actually take steps forward on shaky knees?

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Because that's really how you build bravery is when you actually do it scared because you build that self-efficacy based on Bandura's work.

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And then finally, social psychology, how a group of people who you surround yourself with can help make you braver.

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So, yes, bravery 100% is something that can be built.

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You mentioned something about your nieces and nephews.

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Yeah.

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When we talk about bravery, there's different types of bravery, right?

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We can think of physical bravery, social bravery, maybe moral bravery, sticking up for someone, you know, to do the right thing.

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There's many different types of bravery, even the bravery to be vulnerable and open up and share your feelings.

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There's different types of bravery.

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So someone may seem brave because they're the ones that are going to jump on that hoverboard.

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Right.

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Or the first one to say, I'll go skydiving, right?

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So they're brave in the physical sense.

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But that same person might be really scared to share an idea or have a difficult conversation.

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So bravery is very universal.

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Sometimes people think bravery is just reserved to these heroic moments of doing physical things, but it's actually much bigger than that.

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That makes so much sense.

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I remember working with the leadership group and there was a particular guy that the night before we were at a bar and he's like life of the party.

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You know, he's probably drinking a little too much.

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A little liquid courage.

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Yeah, he's doing all the things.

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Yeah.

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But then when I see him in meetings, like he barely speaks up and says anything.

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And I pulled him to the side one day.

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I was like, hey, I've talked to you one-on-one.

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I know you have great ideas.

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Like, why are you not sharing them?

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And he's like, well, sometimes it could be a little intimidating in those meetings.

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And I'm like, dude, not the guy that was ready to do a headstand on the bar.

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And maybe it was liquid courage.

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But it's interesting that you draw the distinction of different types of

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of, you know, bravery, maybe in a physical setting, he's willing to do more social setting.

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But when it comes to speaking up in that meeting, it's different.

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Is there a certain type of bravery that would help him speak up more in that meeting?

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Well, usually when someone is afraid of speaking up, it is the fear of rejection, the fear of not looking great in front of their peers.

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So that's what you have to work on.

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And, you know, for someone especially, I spent a lot of time working with teams on this specific skill because, you know, when we're trying to develop...

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the best team dynamic.

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We need everyone to share their opinions and share their ideas and share their concerns.

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You know, so I do a lot of work in this space.

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So of course, the leader has a responsibility to create some psychological safety.

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So that is 51% of it.

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But 49% of it is teaching people like the gentleman you're talking about is how to find his voice and

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and speak up even though he's a little bit scared.

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And, you know, working with him on, again, the cognitive side, on the behavioral side, on the social side.

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But if you work with him to help him overcome that fear, you know, little by little, then he'll turn into, he'll transform into someone who you're not going to be able to keep him quiet in the meetings.

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Yeah.

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Love it.

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You've mentioned a couple of times doing it scared.

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Isn't bravery about...

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finding a way to like eliminate your fear so that you're not scared anymore?

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No, it's actually the opposite.

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And again, that's another myth of bravery.

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People think being brave is I'm not scared of anything.

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So I'm so brave.

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When we look at the definition of bravery, and I'm going to cite Dr. Cynthia Puri from Clemson, she's the definition I align to, which is voluntary action in the presence of risk

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or fear toward a noble, worthwhile goal.

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So if you're not experiencing fear or that risk, then you're not being brave, right?

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So that is, and you know, the interesting thing is, and the goal isn't just to overcome your fears as we get into this.

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Like I consciously am always trying to seek something that I fear, right?

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Because that's where the best things in life happen.

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Like as soon as you get too comfortable and there's no more fear because things get easy, you need to get out of your comfort zone and find something that scares you a little, right?

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So that you keep growing and developing.

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So the name of my TEDx, the title of it is Fear More, Not Less.

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So no, if you are fearless, then I would say you're not brave because you're not.

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Because you're not actually doing something in the presence of fear.

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That's so interesting.

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That's, I think...

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the opposite of how people think about it.

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And I've even had moments myself where I do something, like I did the thing, but man, I felt so nervous about it that people will say, man, you're so brave.

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I'm like, I don't feel brave.

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I feel terrified.

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I just didn't let that feeling of terror, like stop me from doing the thing.

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But man, I don't feel brave at all.

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But you're right.

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It is bravery.

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And also like part of this is understanding that that feeling of fear is,

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doesn't mean that there's something wrong.

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Many times that feeling of fear tells you you're doing exactly the right thing.

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So many times when we experience these negative emotions, we think, this is a sign that I shouldn't be doing this.

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I'm not ready yet.

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I'm not confident yet.

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So I'm going to wait.

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I'm going to wait until I feel more ready, more confident, because that's what's best for my career.

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But if you keep waiting until you feel 100% ready, you're either going to never do it or you're going to wait far too long.

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So we need to change our relationship with fear.

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Instead of thinking like, oh, this is an icky feeling and I want to avoid it at all costs.

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Instead, you've got to get comfortable with fear.

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And so many times I use the analogy of building your bravery muscle is like building a physical muscle.

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Like the first time you go into the gym and you...

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Decide that you're going to start lifting weights, maybe lifting biceps.

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Like you're not going to go up to, you know, 50 pound dumbbells and try to lift them the first time.

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That is ridiculous, right?

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You're going to grab some weights that are uncomfortable, that are a little heavy.

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And when you lift the weights, they're going to hurt a little, right?

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And then if you did it right, you're going to be sore the next day.

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So it's the same thing is you got to find like what is that right weight so you can start building your bravery so that you're a little uncomfortable, you're a little scared, you got that fear.

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But the stakes aren't so high where it's like grabbing the 50 pounders where you know you're going to fail.

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So that's the way bravery is built is by...

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Changing your relationship with fear.

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In fact, you know, sometimes I use this analogy, like most of us look at fear as like a warning sign, right?

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Or a stop sign, like stop, like hard stop or warning, like warning bells going off, like don't do this.

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But if we start thinking about when I experience fear, I want you to lean in and be curious.

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Because many times when you dig into it and ask yourself a couple questions, like, what does my future self want me to do in this moment?

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to move forward, have a difficult conversation, share the idea?

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Or is this a real danger that will keep me safe?

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So usually your future self has some wisdom.

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So what I want people to do is when you feel the fear, I want you to pause, lean in,

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And then ask yourself a few questions.

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And usually the fear is actually a signpost pointing you to the most important thing you should do for not only your success at work and in life, but also your happiness and well-being.

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Wow, that's really good.

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What would my future self want me to do in this moment?

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So when I'm afraid of something, and I want to know, like, the last thing that you were afraid of that you overcame, because I heard you say that earlier, and I'm like, oh, okay, she's still doing that work.

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But when I'm afraid of something, I usually do something wrong.

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like maybe that's physical or that seems more scary than the thing that I'm afraid of.

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And maybe I'm weird in that way.

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Like when I was really afraid to leave my job, right.

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I had a great job, the best job I ever had.

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And it was just like, think,

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I went to Hawaii and jumped out of a plane.

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That's a little crazy, I will admit.

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When I was afraid of doing public speaking, I went to the scariest stage I could think of, which was a stand-up comedy stage and did comedy for five years, right?

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That was a little bit extreme.

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I'm thinking about an HR leader or a manager that's out there, and they are wanting to work on this bravery thing, right?

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They want to become more brave and take actions.

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You talked about the physical exercise of kind of like doing those bravery reps. Are there small things that people can do on a regular everyday basis that will give them some of those reps to kind of start building their confidence?

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Maybe they don't want to jump out of a plane.

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That's too extreme.

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But what if they want to do a small thing?

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Yeah.

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And it sounds like it worked for you, though.

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Like you needed to just jump out of the plane and it made you feel like, oh, like, you know, I remember I have a similar story when I was when I was on my journey to earn the title of the United States Marine because I served as a Marine.

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When I was in college, our ROTC unit, because I went through the Naval ROTC program.

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So I was in.

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in Southern California going to the University of San Diego.

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And because we're in San Diego, we have access to like Navy bases and Marine Corps bases.

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And my unit decided one day that they somehow got us access on a weekend to go to the Navy SEAL base to do their confidence course.

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And...

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I was actually kind of told it's going to be a day at the beach in Coronado and we get to play on the, you know, so they kind of sold it as something that would be like really pleasurable.

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And then we pull up and I'm like, oh, my God, this is designed to scare the living, you know, snot out of Navy SEALs.

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And I was feeling like you probably did with jumping out of the airplane.

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So I still remember this one obstacle called the slide for life.

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And I climbed up this little ladder, like metal ladder, up to this platform 40 feet in the air.

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And then in front of me is a rope that goes down 200 feet in front of me to the ground below.

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It looks like a zip line from the side.

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And I was like, oh, my God.

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But there's no equipment.

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It's just me.

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And like, I have never been more physically scared up to that point.

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I've been more scared after that because I've done other things.

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But like I was.

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Like my knees were shaking physically.

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Like I was trying to act cool in front of my fellow, you know, Marines, but I was just terrified.

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And you could see it in my body language.

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But somehow I just grabbed the rope and I started pulling and I got on the other side.

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And when my feet hit the ground on the other side, probably a similar feeling to what you felt after you went skydiving.

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How did you feel when you landed after the skydive?

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It was exhilarating.

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Like I was pumped up.

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I felt like I could do anything.

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I was like, I'm ready to take on the world.

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You felt more confident, you know?

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So that is, so when I, now that I've studied psychology, I went to the University of Pennsylvania and I studied psychology under Marty Seligman.

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So a master's degree in positive psychology.

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So it wasn't until I studied psychology, I realized that what we are experiencing when we do that is what Albert Bandura teaches when it comes to building self-efficacy.

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And that is many times we think we wait until we're confident to take action.

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That is the way the formula goes.

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You know, we wait until we build up enough confidence.

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When we feel ready, then we take action.

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But really the way you build confidence, and Albert Bender is the expert in this, he said, oh, actually it's action that precedes the confidence.

210
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Right.

211
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So you've got to take those steps a little bit scared and that builds the confidence.

212
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Now, for you, you chose to do something really big.

213
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For me, I was kind of told and I was 19 years old, like this is where we're going.

214
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So I just did it.

215
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But in the workplace, I.

216
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It doesn't have to be these huge moments like you're scared to speak in front of a group of people at a meeting and I'm going to put you in front of a thousand people at a national sales meeting.

217
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Like, don't recommend that.

218
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It really should be little steps, little steps that are doable because what we're trying to do is...

219
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is to give your brain data or evidence that I did that.

220
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So if someone was a little bit nervous, you know, speaking up in a meeting and even just sharing an idea, you know, what we would do is work with that person and say, okay, for the meeting coming up, you know what the agenda is.

221
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What's one idea that you want to share?

222
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that you feel a little bit nervous about.

223
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And then you do some rehearsing with that person, right?

224
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Have the person practice.

225
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How are you going to say it?

226
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Once the person maybe practices four or five times, now they feel a little bit more comfortable.

227
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Like now I know what I'm going to say, right?

228
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And there's, I mean, I can tell you there's, I've got...

229
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like 15 different psychological tools that I use, but I just wanna keep it simple for now.

230
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But if that person, you know, practices saying it, ask their future self, like again, future self, what do you want me to do at the meeting tomorrow?

231
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Do you want me to share my idea or should I keep my mouth closed and stop and keep holding back?

232
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And then probably the third little tool is sometimes you can ask yourself,

233
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What would be the impact if I continue to choose to not share my idea?

234
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What is the impact on my career?

235
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So this is a little trick, and this comes from Dr. Cynthia Puri as well, is when you go into the future and you think about what is it that I want and how will taking this brave step help me achieve my goals,

236
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And then also think about the other consequence.

237
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What if I don't?

238
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What if I consistently decide to let that fear control my behavior and I don't?

239
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It's going to have a negative impact on my career.

240
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It's going to dampen the trajectory of my career.

241
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And so when you really, you want to almost...

242
00:17:14.774 --> 00:17:19.435
amplify the fear you have in the future of what will happen.

243
00:17:20.155 --> 00:17:34.359
So if you do the practice and you think about the future, what your future self wants you to do, and think about how horrible your future will be if you don't do this, like now you have really all the tools you need to say like, okay, now we're going to go in the meeting and you're going to go with the intention to speak up.

244
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And then you tell the person when you're ready to do it,

245
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You might feel that fear bubbling up inside of you and they're going to know what you're talking about.

246
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You're like, yeah, experience it.

247
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Okay.

248
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When you're feeling the physical manifestations of fear, this is like beating heart, right?

249
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Or like you start breathing hard.

250
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You might even start sweating.

251
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I want you to know that that is your body.

252
00:17:55.426 --> 00:17:57.948
preparing you to perform at its best.

253
00:17:58.669 --> 00:18:07.316
Back in evolutionary times when we felt fear, you know, our heart started beating really fast to give us blood flow.

254
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And we were breathing more to give us oxygen in all parts of our body because this is a moment that matters to perform at your best.

255
00:18:15.403 --> 00:18:20.005
So the emotion of fear and the emotion of excitement, they're almost identical.

256
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So I want you to tell yourself like, this is normal.

257
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This is a good sign.

258
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This is my body preparing me.

259
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And I'm excited to share this.

260
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So give yourself that little reframe in the moment.

261
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And even if your voice is shaky, just do it.

262
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Share the idea.

263
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And once they do that,

264
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You do a debrief of them afterwards and you're going to ask them, how do you feel?

265
00:18:44.572 --> 00:18:49.254
And they're going to feel exactly what you said after you did that skydive.

266
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Like, wow, I feel great.

267
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That went okay.

268
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And then here's what's happening psychologically.

269
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And I'm sorry, you're just going to have to stop me because I know I'm a nerd and I sometimes go into too much science.

270
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But if we look at what's happening in the brain.

271
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So when we choose to take the brave act and we realize it goes okay.

272
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Okay.

273
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Right?

274
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What happens in our mind is we're teaching the amygdala, which is a part of our brain that freaks out and says, don't, don't, don't.

275
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We actually are teaching our brain that everything's okay.

276
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So in the past, we always overreacted because in our brain to protect us, you know, we always experience things from the feeling part of our brain, the amygdala, before it gets to our rational part of our brain, really our prefrontal cortex.

277
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So before this, this person was always saying like, oh my gosh, I feel the fear.

278
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My amygdala is saying, don't do it.

279
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It's like an over-enthusiastic and paranoid security guard that's always saying everything is dangerous.

280
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So in the past, this person, every time they feel the fear and then they cower, they decide to take a step back.

281
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What happens in the brain is you're reinforcing it because your brain says, see, it's a good thing you didn't do that.

282
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Because you feel relief because you didn't do it.

283
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So what happens when you allow fear to control your behavior, you basically just it's it just reinforces it and you give more power to the fear.

284
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And it's kind of like a downward spiral.

285
00:20:08.942 --> 00:20:09.102
Right.

286
00:20:09.142 --> 00:20:12.185
But it's the opposite when you decide to take that little step forward.

287
00:20:12.205 --> 00:20:15.348
You're like what you're happening in your brain is you're you're you're teaching your brain.

288
00:20:15.368 --> 00:20:18.431
I have now evidence that, you know what, the sky did not fall.

289
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Everything did not go wrong.

290
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It actually went okay.

291
00:20:23.029 --> 00:20:24.370
Or maybe it went great.

292
00:20:25.210 --> 00:20:27.832
And now I have new evidence and said, wow, how did that go?

293
00:20:27.852 --> 00:20:28.832
That went okay.

294
00:20:28.912 --> 00:20:29.613
It went pretty good.

295
00:20:29.713 --> 00:20:30.393
Like, how do you feel?

296
00:20:30.413 --> 00:20:31.413
I feel pretty great about it.

297
00:20:31.494 --> 00:20:33.074
So how does that make you feel for the next one?

298
00:20:33.114 --> 00:20:38.097
So it gives you more confidence to speak up at the next meeting and the next meeting.

299
00:20:38.137 --> 00:20:43.460
So this is what, and then you can actually start training your brain to,

300
00:20:44.585 --> 00:20:49.631
to be brave because when this happens, you're giving these little micro workouts to your brain.

301
00:20:50.231 --> 00:20:57.259
So when you do this, you're forcing your brain to go to the prefrontal cortex and decide to do the thing and not allow the amygdala to control your behavior.

302
00:20:57.680 --> 00:21:03.587
So now your brain is having to create, it's lighting up the pathways between your amygdala to your prefrontal cortex, right?

303
00:21:03.607 --> 00:21:04.368
Yeah.

304
00:21:05.108 --> 00:21:08.751
And then even your ACC, which is a part of your brain, it's called the courage part of the brain.

305
00:21:08.791 --> 00:21:24.861
So, you know, to summarize it, you know, the more you do little brave things, you're working up that little bravery muscle, you're changing your, literally the wiring and the thickness of, you know, your prefrontal cortex.

306
00:21:25.641 --> 00:21:30.088
And you're convincing yourself that, wow, this is something safe to do.

307
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This is the right thing to do.

308
00:21:31.290 --> 00:21:35.617
So there's an upward spiral when we do these little brave, you know, actions.

309
00:21:35.697 --> 00:21:38.021
You know, just like when you lift weights, you get a little bit stronger.

310
00:21:38.041 --> 00:21:38.742
You can do a little bit more.

311
00:21:38.782 --> 00:21:39.804
The same thing happens with Braver.

312
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I love that.

313
00:21:41.354 --> 00:21:44.599
The neuroplasticity in our brains allows us to rewire it, right?

314
00:21:44.619 --> 00:21:48.625
So we need our amygdala because that's the thing that tells us, hey, this is not safe.

315
00:21:48.645 --> 00:21:50.468
And sometimes that's a real thing, right?

316
00:21:50.488 --> 00:21:56.296
You walk out the house and there's a dinosaur there, a saber-toothed tiger, if you will, and you're like, well, this is not safe.

317
00:21:56.877 --> 00:21:57.937
This is not safe.

318
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You got to listen to that.

319
00:21:58.757 --> 00:22:00.218
But it also needs a governor.

320
00:22:00.598 --> 00:22:05.219
And when you can govern it properly and build evidence and say, oh, actually, this is safe.

321
00:22:05.259 --> 00:22:08.779
It didn't feel safe at first, but I did the scary thing and I didn't die.

322
00:22:09.079 --> 00:22:12.140
Or did the scary thing and it actually opened up a new world of possibility.

323
00:22:12.600 --> 00:22:16.341
Now I can say, okay, I have more evidence to do a bigger thing later.

324
00:22:16.381 --> 00:22:17.921
So I love that.

325
00:22:18.181 --> 00:22:21.121
I love that term governor or a filter, right?

326
00:22:21.141 --> 00:22:23.162
Like how do you filter through the fears?

327
00:22:24.042 --> 00:22:28.908
You know, so that you know which ones to push through and which ones to listen to.

328
00:22:29.129 --> 00:22:35.056
I mean, this fear is what kept our ancestors alive in evolutionary times.

329
00:22:35.137 --> 00:22:37.480
But now most of the fears that we have...

330
00:22:38.573 --> 00:22:40.635
you know, are not physical fears.

331
00:22:40.835 --> 00:22:46.180
So 90% of the time, the fears that we feel are irrational, right?

332
00:22:46.220 --> 00:22:48.482
And the thing that we're so scared of happening will probably not happen.

333
00:22:48.602 --> 00:22:53.306
And these fears are actually, you know, limiting us in a significant way.

334
00:22:54.087 --> 00:23:01.914
Last thing I want to say too, is as you're trying to differentiate between the two, as you said, Governor, you made me think of what we're trying to do is we're trying to seek truth.

335
00:23:02.902 --> 00:23:04.343
I am an anti-woo-woo girl.

336
00:23:04.603 --> 00:23:10.967
As you get to know me, like, you know, I studied positive psychology at Penn, so I could say I'm a happiness scientist, but I'm not a woo-woo girl.

337
00:23:11.447 --> 00:23:15.709
So when it comes to this, when you feel the fear, I want you to seek the truth.

338
00:23:16.530 --> 00:23:21.893
The truth, which is speaking up in the meeting is the right thing to do.

339
00:23:21.913 --> 00:23:22.013
Yeah.

340
00:23:22.773 --> 00:23:24.153
And you're not going to die.

341
00:23:24.293 --> 00:23:30.354
You're not going to like all these things we imagine, the things that we're scared of are really irrational.

342
00:23:30.654 --> 00:23:33.235
So I ask people to be like, we're gonna be objective.

343
00:23:33.255 --> 00:23:34.095
We're gonna be rational.

344
00:23:34.115 --> 00:23:35.095
We need to seek truth.

345
00:23:35.915 --> 00:23:41.056
And if we really look at it that way, we're like, actually speaking up in meeting is the most important thing I can do for my career.

346
00:23:41.456 --> 00:23:43.036
It's the best thing I can do for my team.

347
00:23:43.477 --> 00:23:48.717
It's the best thing we can do for our clients, our customers, our patients, whoever that person is, is for me to share this idea.

348
00:23:49.198 --> 00:23:51.338
And me holding back isn't doing anyone a favor.

349
00:23:51.358 --> 00:23:51.858
Okay.

350
00:23:51.898 --> 00:23:56.340
So this fear I'm feeling is irrational, and I'm gonna step forward even though I feel it.

351
00:23:57.001 --> 00:24:00.062
Yeah, you made me think of something there.

352
00:24:00.742 --> 00:24:02.783
There's been a lot of talk about psychological safety.

353
00:24:02.803 --> 00:24:05.545
It's not new information, but it's a big talk about it.

354
00:24:07.086 --> 00:24:13.929
There's a lot of organizations that are stuck in this place of like, do we do what's best for the business or do we do what's best for the people?

355
00:24:14.329 --> 00:24:19.252
There are a lot of leaders that I talk to, they complain about people

356
00:24:20.132 --> 00:24:23.575
wanting the world to kind of bend to their way, right?

357
00:24:23.976 --> 00:24:31.443
Is there a fine line between kind of developing psychological safety and just coddling someone?

358
00:24:31.483 --> 00:24:42.273
Do you ever run into like, you know, that mix of like, okay, we do need to create psychological safety, but we don't ever want to just go soft and allow anything to happen.

359
00:24:42.293 --> 00:24:43.194
Where's the line there?

360
00:24:43.555 --> 00:24:44.275
Yeah, well,

361
00:24:45.220 --> 00:24:50.946
When we think about psychological safety, we're trying to make it feel more comfortable and safe for people to speak up.

362
00:24:51.046 --> 00:24:54.630
So as we say, like, do we do psychological safety or do we do coddling?

363
00:24:54.650 --> 00:25:02.538
Like, I don't think that's the right even spectrum to think about because, you know, but what is not appropriate is saying like, okay, no one wants to share their ideas.

364
00:25:02.558 --> 00:25:03.239
Right.

365
00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:04.460
And everyone's staying silent.

366
00:25:04.800 --> 00:25:07.022
And let's just continue down that path.

367
00:25:07.203 --> 00:25:08.584
That is not great leadership.

368
00:25:08.604 --> 00:25:09.605
That's not effective.

369
00:25:10.405 --> 00:25:12.207
As a leader, it's not effective when it comes to teams.

370
00:25:12.227 --> 00:25:12.948
We just know that.

371
00:25:13.048 --> 00:25:15.290
So what is the solution?

372
00:25:15.370 --> 00:25:22.376
So psychological safety is the leader's responsibility to lower the bar of risk, perceived risk in the minds of the team.

373
00:25:23.017 --> 00:25:27.561
So it's the leader's job to try to create that psychological safety.

374
00:25:28.081 --> 00:25:28.281
Right.

375
00:25:28.321 --> 00:25:30.704
And then Amy Ebbinson teaches there's three ways to do that.

376
00:25:30.944 --> 00:25:35.969
One is to what she calls set the stage, tell people like your voice is needed.

377
00:25:35.989 --> 00:25:37.791
I need your concerns.

378
00:25:37.811 --> 00:25:38.512
I need your ideas.

379
00:25:38.612 --> 00:25:42.977
Step two, she says, is to not just say when you have an idea, share it.

380
00:25:43.057 --> 00:25:47.261
But step two is ask people, what is your idea?

381
00:25:47.742 --> 00:25:49.423
And then wait and expect an answer.

382
00:25:49.443 --> 00:25:49.904
Right.

383
00:25:50.204 --> 00:25:56.647
And then step three is when someone shares a different idea or a concern, how you respond to that person really tells them if it's safe.

384
00:25:56.687 --> 00:25:58.088
I can say, oh, it's really safe.

385
00:25:58.128 --> 00:25:58.588
What do you think?

386
00:25:59.569 --> 00:26:04.291
And then if I bite your head off because I don't like the idea, it makes it very clear it's not safe.

387
00:26:04.572 --> 00:26:07.433
So that's on the psychological safety side, 51%.

388
00:26:07.713 --> 00:26:09.614
So you're lowering the bar to make it feel safer.

389
00:26:10.174 --> 00:26:12.236
But you can never make that bar go down to really zero.

390
00:26:12.256 --> 00:26:13.656
So people are still going to feel the fear.

391
00:26:13.756 --> 00:26:15.297
And that's where bravery comes in.

392
00:26:15.337 --> 00:26:16.498
Like how do you help people?

393
00:26:17.118 --> 00:26:21.822
build the bravery to speak up even when they're a little uncertain.

394
00:26:21.923 --> 00:26:39.098
So when you do both, when you leaders learn how to create psychological safety to make it feel safer to speak up, and you teach people that it's their responsibility to find the courage to speak up, it's part of the job, it's an expectation, and we're going to teach them how to be brave.

395
00:26:39.538 --> 00:26:42.161
That's when you have a culture of courageous candor.

396
00:26:42.941 --> 00:26:57.689
And, you know, when we look at Google's research, Project Aristotle, that I'm sure you and your audience is familiar with, you know, they were looking at all the teams across Google or they looked at 180 teams and their hypothesis in Google is obsessed with data.

397
00:26:57.709 --> 00:26:58.690
So they like to measure things.

398
00:26:58.710 --> 00:27:05.093
So their chief people officer said, we're going to measure what makes our highest performing teams the highest performing teams.

399
00:27:05.253 --> 00:27:08.154
And all of our teams are good, but what makes the great ones great?

400
00:27:08.274 --> 00:27:10.454
And their hypothesis was the level of talent.

401
00:27:10.474 --> 00:27:15.875
They thought, you know, the highest degrees, the highest, you know, intelligence scores.

402
00:27:16.275 --> 00:27:24.457
You know, if you take someone who's got, you know, the highest, you know, IQ with someone who's, you know, maybe, you know, super extroverted, that is good innovation.

403
00:27:24.477 --> 00:27:28.897
They thought it's the talent that we bring to the team that is the biggest predictor of success.

404
00:27:29.618 --> 00:27:31.638
And they were dead wrong.

405
00:27:31.658 --> 00:27:31.758
Yeah.

406
00:27:32.440 --> 00:27:41.205
The number one predictor of team performance was not the team, you know, the talent in the team.

407
00:27:41.225 --> 00:27:45.908
It was the team dynamics, specifically the ability for people to share ideas.

408
00:27:46.348 --> 00:27:51.512
So it was psychological safety and people feeling comfortable or brave enough to speak up.

409
00:27:51.892 --> 00:27:54.974
So we know, you know, based on the research, like as a leader, you know,

410
00:27:55.694 --> 00:28:08.344
You know, as someone who's on a team, if you're listening and you're not a team leader or someone who's like leading a team, like this is if you want to perform at your best and have the highest levels of engagement of your team, like this is an absolute must.

411
00:28:09.125 --> 00:28:18.893
And if someone said, you know, your question is, what if someone just says, like, I'm just, I'm one of those shy people and I don't like to speak in meetings and I don't want to share my ideas.

412
00:28:19.473 --> 00:28:23.056
Is it okay to tell that person like, okay, you don't have to share your ideas.

413
00:28:25.800 --> 00:28:28.023
Um, but I'll back it up with some evidence too.

414
00:28:28.083 --> 00:28:30.065
I would say, no, it's part of the job.

415
00:28:30.145 --> 00:28:36.973
We're hiring you for your brain, for your observation, for your ideas, for the concerns that you're seeing.

416
00:28:37.013 --> 00:28:42.299
So no, it's not okay to stay silent, but I know that it's scary.

417
00:28:43.300 --> 00:28:44.321
And you have that fear.

418
00:28:45.082 --> 00:28:52.852
So I'm going to work with you as your leader and coach to find ways for you to share your ideas in meetings, in professional settings.

419
00:28:53.373 --> 00:28:55.095
And I'm doing this not to make you miserable.

420
00:28:55.435 --> 00:28:57.758
I'm doing it because this is the right thing for the business.

421
00:28:57.778 --> 00:28:58.819
This is the right thing for the team.

422
00:28:58.839 --> 00:29:00.682
But it's also the right thing for you.

423
00:29:01.803 --> 00:29:08.945
Because I'm sensing that if you're really hesitant to speak up in meetings here, there's other areas in your life that you're hesitating.

424
00:29:09.525 --> 00:29:17.947
So if I can work with you and coach you and help you build this bravery to make your ideas heard, I think it's going to make a significant impact.

425
00:29:18.727 --> 00:29:19.767
And not just your success.

426
00:29:19.787 --> 00:29:21.848
That's like courageous candor that you're talking about.

427
00:29:22.408 --> 00:29:23.248
Yeah, exactly.

428
00:29:23.633 --> 00:29:28.576
I do think that's needed because I do feel some leaders would be on the opposite end of that.

429
00:29:28.596 --> 00:29:40.743
It's like, oh, well, I know that psychological safety is important because I've heard of Google Project Aristotle and I don't want to violate that or I don't want to make someone, you know, uncomfortable at work.

430
00:29:41.183 --> 00:29:46.609
And so they just kind of throw their hands up and say, okay, well, if they don't want to do it, I'll just go find someone who will.

431
00:29:47.010 --> 00:29:48.171
And I love your take on it.

432
00:29:48.191 --> 00:29:49.332
It's like, that's not the goal.

433
00:29:49.733 --> 00:29:54.177
The goal is to have that courageous candor where you can pull the best out of them, right?

434
00:29:54.197 --> 00:29:55.579
We did hire you to do this job.

435
00:29:56.320 --> 00:30:00.585
And we have a standard that we set, and we need you to hit that standard.

436
00:30:00.605 --> 00:30:01.546
So that's really, really good.

437
00:30:02.246 --> 00:30:02.627
Mm-hmm.

438
00:30:03.188 --> 00:30:10.422
Is there a way to build a courageous culture for a company?

439
00:30:10.503 --> 00:30:12.567
Is that a thing, to build a brave culture?

440
00:30:13.761 --> 00:30:16.143
Yes, bravery is contagious.

441
00:30:16.364 --> 00:30:33.640
So if you look at the research on how behaviors are impacted by those you surround yourself with, it is absolutely clear that if everyone else is sitting back and not sharing their ideas in a meeting, if we're just using that as an example, then the chance of...

442
00:30:34.100 --> 00:30:37.582
that shy person we're talking about sharing their ideas is very minimal.

443
00:30:38.202 --> 00:30:42.865
So we want to create a culture of courage in a team or an organization.

444
00:30:42.905 --> 00:30:44.726
We don't just, and I think a lot of times

445
00:30:45.834 --> 00:30:49.175
Organizations think like we need the leader to be brave, right?

446
00:30:49.295 --> 00:30:53.416
That is like it's the job of the CEO to make those big, bold decisions.

447
00:30:53.896 --> 00:30:56.537
But let's talk about like how bravery matters at all levels.

448
00:30:56.577 --> 00:31:05.379
So, of course, you need the CEO of a company to know how to make those bold, brave decisions that affect the company.

449
00:31:05.699 --> 00:31:07.800
And that's very important at that executive level.

450
00:31:07.820 --> 00:31:08.380
Okay.

451
00:31:08.700 --> 00:31:12.522
But we also need bravery all the way down to the individual contributor.

452
00:31:13.802 --> 00:31:16.563
Because the individual contributor is the one that's interacting with your customer.

453
00:31:17.123 --> 00:31:23.746
Your individual contributor is the one who actually can see the problems that are preventing them from meeting the needs of the customer.

454
00:31:24.386 --> 00:31:28.748
It's the individual contributor that's closest to the problem that also has the best ideas to overcome the problem.

455
00:31:29.328 --> 00:31:29.508
Right?

456
00:31:29.568 --> 00:31:32.730
So, you know, I use, I can go back to a military example.

457
00:31:32.770 --> 00:31:35.691
Like, you know, because I'm the bravery expert and I've got this, you know, my...

458
00:31:36.691 --> 00:31:40.973
My background is as a United States Marine, but I want to talk about a story about my grandfather.

459
00:31:41.833 --> 00:31:46.855
My grandfather was a Marine in World War II, and he fought in the Battle of Tarawa.

460
00:31:46.975 --> 00:31:51.877
It was one of the bloodiest battles for the Marine Corps in the history of the entire Marine Corps.

461
00:31:52.818 --> 00:31:56.539
And it was in the island hopping campaign in World War II.

462
00:31:56.859 --> 00:31:58.140
So this Battle of Tarawa.

463
00:31:58.980 --> 00:32:01.385
And I could go on for 30 minutes telling the battle and then you don't want that.

464
00:32:01.485 --> 00:32:06.734
But let me just tell you the point about, is it important to have a culture of bravery?

465
00:32:06.834 --> 00:32:08.257
Does everyone need to be brave?

466
00:32:09.098 --> 00:32:09.499
And that is...

467
00:32:11.185 --> 00:32:13.707
Because it was one of the bloodiest battles, it was one of those things.

468
00:32:13.767 --> 00:32:19.712
It was at a kind of a tipping point because it was the most heavily fortified Japanese stronghold in all of Japan.

469
00:32:20.213 --> 00:32:24.957
They said it could take millions of the U.S. military.

470
00:32:25.317 --> 00:32:27.499
A hundred years, there's no way they're going to take this island.

471
00:32:27.899 --> 00:32:30.641
So it was a really, really hard island to take.

472
00:32:31.582 --> 00:32:36.927
And it was not just the officers that demonstrated extreme bravery.

473
00:32:36.947 --> 00:32:37.407
Yeah.

474
00:32:37.990 --> 00:32:53.921
But it was the bravery of every single Marine when their officer fell and maybe lost his life and he wasn't there, but it was the bravery of every single Marine in that unit that made the difference to win the Battle of Tarawa.

475
00:32:55.042 --> 00:33:00.948
So for me as a Marine officer, yes, I want to be brave, but what happens if something happens to me?

476
00:33:02.009 --> 00:33:11.878
I need the bravery of my officers that report to me and then my non-commissioned officers and my Lance corporals all the way down to my private first class.

477
00:33:12.018 --> 00:33:15.741
We need to have that bravery within the organization and go back to the definition.

478
00:33:15.781 --> 00:33:16.582
Just bravery is...

479
00:33:17.563 --> 00:33:21.684
It's taking action in the presence of fear toward a noble, worthwhile goal.

480
00:33:22.244 --> 00:33:24.985
We want to give the mission to our employees.

481
00:33:25.005 --> 00:33:26.445
They know here's why we exist.

482
00:33:26.465 --> 00:33:27.045
Here's our mission.

483
00:33:27.085 --> 00:33:31.467
Here's the specific, you know, objective or goal we need to accomplish.

484
00:33:31.907 --> 00:33:34.907
There's going to be fears that are going to get in your way to accomplish the goal.

485
00:33:34.947 --> 00:33:40.089
And I want you to have the bravery to be able to overcome those fears to accomplish the goal because that's going to make the company better.

486
00:33:40.129 --> 00:33:40.829
So, yeah.

487
00:33:40.949 --> 00:33:43.931
We need to build a culture of courage in organizations.

488
00:33:43.991 --> 00:33:50.014
It is, think of it, it's just like growth factor that you can just sprinkle over the entire organization.

489
00:33:50.854 --> 00:34:01.760
Like the cowering or people letting fear control them just dampens the effectiveness, the engagement, the happiness of all the people in the workplace.

490
00:34:01.780 --> 00:34:04.661
But if you can teach people how to identify people,

491
00:34:05.576 --> 00:34:09.759
and overcome those fears like their performance just takes off.

492
00:34:09.939 --> 00:34:11.700
And then they're so happy.

493
00:34:11.720 --> 00:34:13.661
And here's why they're so happy.

494
00:34:14.482 --> 00:34:20.646
Because when they go home at night and they look in the mirror, they like what they see.

495
00:34:21.555 --> 00:34:23.096
Because it's been a long time.

496
00:34:23.116 --> 00:34:24.417
They've been wanting to do something.

497
00:34:24.437 --> 00:34:27.639
They've got the goal, but they just can't bring themselves to overcome the fears to do it.

498
00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:31.182
So when they allow that to happen, they don't really feel self-confident.

499
00:34:31.222 --> 00:34:33.243
They feel that imposter syndrome.

500
00:34:33.263 --> 00:34:34.744
They look in the mirror and they don't like what they see.

501
00:34:34.784 --> 00:34:42.870
So when you can learn to build bravery and you can make it contagious, teach everyone in an organization, they go on fire.

502
00:34:43.950 --> 00:34:47.052
I have case studies and I can always tell you about a case study of what it does.

503
00:34:47.172 --> 00:34:51.914
It's just it's, you know, so you don't want just one person in an organization.

504
00:34:51.934 --> 00:34:54.816
I mean, if one person learns to be brave, it's going to help their career.

505
00:34:54.856 --> 00:34:59.118
But if you can bring it to the entire team, it is it's a game changer.

506
00:34:59.793 --> 00:35:00.053
Yeah.

507
00:35:00.413 --> 00:35:04.096
And I like those stories that you shared.

508
00:35:04.116 --> 00:35:10.621
I'm sure that in your military experience and your families, thank you for your service for that.

509
00:35:10.661 --> 00:35:13.403
And it's cool to see that multigenerational dynamic.

510
00:35:13.423 --> 00:35:22.049
I'm sure there have been plenty of stories where you've seen bravery show up and it literally be one of the things that saved lives, right?

511
00:35:22.129 --> 00:35:24.971
And I think about an organization where we're,

512
00:35:26.098 --> 00:35:33.844
putting it all on the line, we're not necessarily risking our lives, but we are sometimes risking our livelihoods, right?

513
00:35:33.864 --> 00:35:38.027
And I think one of the things that stopped people from being brave is that

514
00:35:39.787 --> 00:35:41.067
they want to protect themselves.

515
00:35:41.247 --> 00:35:43.508
They're afraid of what's going to happen on the other side.

516
00:35:43.608 --> 00:35:44.628
Right.

517
00:35:44.668 --> 00:35:47.029
You have a saying that you've talked about before.

518
00:35:47.429 --> 00:35:49.950
And lastly, last time I saw you, you gave me this cool little hat.

519
00:35:50.150 --> 00:35:50.650
Oh yeah.

520
00:35:50.710 --> 00:35:52.190
He's got it.

521
00:35:52.211 --> 00:35:53.211
Collector item there.

522
00:35:53.311 --> 00:35:54.051
Embrace the suck.

523
00:35:54.151 --> 00:35:54.491
It is.

524
00:35:54.511 --> 00:36:03.314
I want to, I want to just hear you talk more, more about this, this attitude or this, this, this concept, this mindset of embracing the suck.

525
00:36:03.874 --> 00:36:04.254
Yeah.

526
00:36:04.594 --> 00:36:06.755
So obviously that comes from the Marine Corps.

527
00:36:07.495 --> 00:36:07.595
Um,

528
00:36:08.657 --> 00:36:14.344
But again, when I studied psychology, I realized like there's so much brilliance in this just macho phrase.

529
00:36:15.225 --> 00:36:19.110
And, you know, just at a high level too, like life is going to be hard.

530
00:36:19.130 --> 00:36:21.813
Things are going to be hard.

531
00:36:21.854 --> 00:36:23.175
Sometimes things are going to suck.

532
00:36:23.335 --> 00:36:27.200
And how well you respond to when things are hard

533
00:36:28.377 --> 00:36:31.019
is going to separate you from the rest.

534
00:36:31.079 --> 00:36:34.481
Because a lot of people respond to like, okay, this is really hard, this sucks.

535
00:36:34.561 --> 00:36:35.782
So I'm just gonna quit.

536
00:36:36.362 --> 00:36:41.966
Or I'm gonna go sit in the corner and just think about and ruminate and talk about how much it sucks, right?

537
00:36:42.366 --> 00:36:49.771
And then there's those people that just, if it's hard, if there's a challenge, if you just run toward it and deal with it, right?

538
00:36:49.971 --> 00:36:53.053
Embrace what's hard, embrace the adversity.

539
00:36:54.133 --> 00:36:59.815
If you embrace the suck and you move toward it, then you overcome it faster.

540
00:37:01.995 --> 00:37:05.536
So I talk about embrace the suck or sometimes I just call it attack the hill.

541
00:37:06.017 --> 00:37:07.657
Like the hill is the thing that sucks.

542
00:37:08.097 --> 00:37:11.798
It's a thing that, oh gosh, this is the thing that it's really hard.

543
00:37:11.838 --> 00:37:13.639
So I talk about it with everyone how much it sucks.

544
00:37:14.419 --> 00:37:17.040
And then I keep avoiding it because it's really horrible.

545
00:37:17.100 --> 00:37:19.900
And then what does all of that activity do?

546
00:37:20.601 --> 00:37:21.401
Worrying about it.

547
00:37:23.108 --> 00:37:30.875
looking at the hill, talking about how much the hill, what does that do for me by avoiding what's hard?

548
00:37:30.895 --> 00:37:32.097
Does it make the hill go away?

549
00:37:32.617 --> 00:37:34.859
The hill is still in between myself and the goal.

550
00:37:35.893 --> 00:37:36.133
Right?

551
00:37:36.293 --> 00:37:40.954
And so in the Marine Corps, they're like, if there is a hill, like you don't just meander up it.

552
00:37:40.994 --> 00:37:42.035
You attack the hill.

553
00:37:42.055 --> 00:37:43.175
You run up the hill.

554
00:37:43.235 --> 00:37:44.555
Like whatever that challenge is.

555
00:37:44.615 --> 00:37:52.658
So this is another mindset too is, you know, when you're going into your workday, you know, think about what are all the things that are on my plate today.

556
00:37:53.818 --> 00:37:56.419
Ah, I have to have this difficult conversation and it's not going to be fun.

557
00:37:56.639 --> 00:37:56.839
Right?

558
00:37:56.899 --> 00:38:03.241
So usually what most people do is they take that thing and they put it off until the end of the day.

559
00:38:05.233 --> 00:38:06.294
pushed off till the next day.

560
00:38:06.314 --> 00:38:09.578
They keep kind of procrastinating or hesitating to have the conversation.

561
00:38:09.598 --> 00:38:12.662
But if you embrace what you know is going to be hard.

562
00:38:13.423 --> 00:38:15.525
So have that meeting first thing in the morning.

563
00:38:16.226 --> 00:38:17.668
First thing in the morning, like,

564
00:38:18.382 --> 00:38:22.105
rip off the band-aid and here's what happens and a little psychology behind it.

565
00:38:22.165 --> 00:38:30.733
According to Roy Baumeister, he has studied these what we call psychological resources, which is kind of a term, an academic term for willpower.

566
00:38:31.253 --> 00:38:36.678
You have the most willpower or full battery on your psychological resources in the morning.

567
00:38:37.178 --> 00:38:41.642
So you need to, again, embrace what sucks, attack the hill first thing in the morning.

568
00:38:41.662 --> 00:38:42.563
The hardest thing

569
00:38:43.877 --> 00:38:46.179
that you need to do, do it first thing in the morning.

570
00:38:46.359 --> 00:38:52.244
And if you do that first thing in the morning, then afterwards you experience these positive emotions.

571
00:38:52.264 --> 00:38:53.585
You're like, oh, I just did that.

572
00:38:53.605 --> 00:38:54.546
Like I did that this morning.

573
00:38:54.566 --> 00:38:55.627
I set my alarm for five o'clock.

574
00:38:55.647 --> 00:38:57.889
I did not want to get out of bed and work out, right?

575
00:38:58.989 --> 00:39:01.712
But I got out of bed, even though I didn't feel like it.

576
00:39:01.752 --> 00:39:02.973
I embraced the second.

577
00:39:02.993 --> 00:39:04.154
Like, oh God, I don't feel like doing it.

578
00:39:04.174 --> 00:39:05.415
I really just want to sleep in, right?

579
00:39:05.935 --> 00:39:10.519
I had to get up extra early because we were doing this podcast, but I'm like, how am I going to feel at the end of it?

580
00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:11.700
So when people...

581
00:39:13.184 --> 00:39:21.490
do that hard thing first thing in the morning, afterwards they get flooded with positive emotions because they feel good about themselves because they accomplish it and they become more productive.

582
00:39:22.371 --> 00:39:28.636
And when we look at the research by Barbara Fredrickson, who studies positive emotions, you become more collaborative, right?

583
00:39:28.656 --> 00:39:30.377
There's all these great things that happen.

584
00:39:30.417 --> 00:39:37.022
So we have this single choice when there's something that's hard, when there's something that sucks, are we going to keep hesitating and avoiding it?

585
00:39:38.174 --> 00:39:42.116
Or are you going to embrace that thing and go like, this is what's going to separate me.

586
00:39:42.217 --> 00:39:43.497
Most people are going to avoid it.

587
00:39:44.238 --> 00:39:45.499
They're going to talk about it.

588
00:39:45.839 --> 00:39:46.759
They're going to never do it.

589
00:39:47.160 --> 00:39:50.862
I am going to move toward that challenge and embrace it and get over it.

590
00:39:50.922 --> 00:39:52.703
And that will separate you.

591
00:39:52.763 --> 00:39:54.364
That's going to separate you from the competition.

592
00:39:54.444 --> 00:39:58.326
If you can create this culture of embracing the suck and getting through hard things faster.

593
00:39:59.267 --> 00:40:02.289
You know, avoiding it only makes it worse over time.

594
00:40:02.309 --> 00:40:03.270
Right?

595
00:40:03.830 --> 00:40:06.692
So embrace what's hard that's in the way of your goals.

596
00:40:07.073 --> 00:40:07.873
So embrace the suck.

597
00:40:08.113 --> 00:40:08.333
Yeah.

598
00:40:08.373 --> 00:40:10.415
It's what makes us stronger.

599
00:40:10.695 --> 00:40:10.975
Yeah.

600
00:40:11.496 --> 00:40:13.937
Strength is born in the struggle, my friend.

601
00:40:13.957 --> 00:40:14.578
Mm-hmm.

602
00:40:15.235 --> 00:40:17.076
Jill, thanks so much for sharing the book.

603
00:40:17.297 --> 00:40:18.618
The Bravery Effect is out now.

604
00:40:18.658 --> 00:40:21.480
Just had a one year anniversary.

605
00:40:21.640 --> 00:40:23.341
So make sure that you go get that book.

606
00:40:23.381 --> 00:40:32.528
And if you are also booking for conferences or needing to develop and cultivate bravery within your team, make sure that you contact Jill.

607
00:40:32.568 --> 00:40:36.932
I'll have all of our contact information in the show notes for you to check out.

608
00:40:37.252 --> 00:40:38.913
Jill, thank you so much for being on the show today.

609
00:40:38.953 --> 00:40:41.295
I really appreciate you sharing your expertise.

610
00:40:41.315 --> 00:40:42.736
That was a blast talking with you.

611
00:40:42.836 --> 00:40:43.096
Absolutely.

612
00:40:43.116 --> 00:40:43.737
Thanks for having me.